Richard,

Thanks. The back entry on "JFK" in the video capture showing the red trajectory line does appear to be too low. If it is moved up, then the chest/throat exit moves up, but does the exit move up enough? (This is all assuming that the angle through the body is right.)

Moreover, if we move up the back entry and the front exit on JFK, how does that affect where the trajectory hits JBC? Is the entrance on JBC shown on the video capture above accurate?

Looking forward to further commentary and responses on this. Thanks, again.

Bruce

>I finally got one of my VCRs hooked back up to my computer so
>I could capture some stills from the Discovery Beyond the
>Magic Bullet program. I left the captures at 800x600 for
>effect. Note several things:
>
>1. The trajectory angle was calculated rather precisely from
>the 6th floor "sniper's nest" of the TSBD as you know.
>
>2. The JFK back wound on the manufactured torso is a very
>good depiction of the back entrance wound, and matches nicely
>with the autopsy photo.
>
>3. The red trajectory line is from the program, I didn't add
>it as you know. It appears too low at the back entry(side
>view), but, see #2 above. The red line depicted is just very
>wide. Note where the bullet exits the CHEST.
>
>4. The program noted their bullet and CE399 were close in
>appearance(he said smiling politely).
>
>5. I will reserve editorial comment unless you guys decide to
>try to justify this junk.
>
>
>Sit back, and enjoy the show.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

Richard,

Doesn't appear that they gave much consideration to the fact that
the exit on the front of JFK was far to low. I guess the primary
purpose was to get the bullet through JFK and into JBC at the correct location and tumbling.

I will give them credit. I appears that they did really try and
duplicate the conditions and trajectory. I beleive they got it
right. Not right for the SBT, but right for what actually would
have happened had the bullet transitted JFK's body.

The bullet comparison is a hoot. Is this the one they fired into
the wood beam or is this the one that passed through the bodies?

Gary

Richard,

Thank you sincerely for posting these photos. My own son called me after watching this show! He was fooled as I'm sure most viewers were.

I'm putting a link to this thread on the Lancer home page and for those of you that have friends or relatives that watched the program, please direct them here.

Sincerely,

Debra

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Thanks Richard:

You did well in capturing a frame with the red line traversing the torsos -- it's on the screen for such a short period of time.

Fascinating to see how they finesse the issue of the location of the exit wound in "Kennedy's" chest. There is no verbal mention of it; it's shown only very briefly on a "face sheet." The metal-rod demonstration of the path of the bullet through the bones of the skeleton -- by the autopsist (who, obviously, is ignorant of the facts of the case) -- shows clearly that the exit is in the upper chest, not the lower neck, but nothing is said accordingly.

From the opening words by Vincent Bugliosi via the continuous references to Oswald as the assassin, it's clear where the producers are going with this. Not an ounce of integrity amongst the lot of them.

Shameful.

Allan

Thanks to everyone who offered their supporting comments. It's very much appreciated.

RJS

The entry location on JFK's back should actually be lower than what is shown in the first reconstruction, but correct in the second, as seen in the original post (note, they are not the same). The following is part of the Autopsy Descriptive Sheet:



Two points to note:

1) the actual point of entry shown on the upper torso (back view, right), and

2) 1977 pencil notation (apparently not long before HSCA), adding a mark at the neck.

The White House death certificate explains that the wound was at the level of the third thoracic vertebra:



From the autopsy protocol we find that the bullet caused damage to the apical portion of the right lung.



Yet the autopsy still concludes that the bullet exited through the neck, meaning the bullet changed direction upwards from the trajectory by about 35 degrees by my eye. This means it would need to have changed direction on exit more than 35 degrees downward. While a bullet can change direction through a medium, it's difficult through the air.

It seems rather unlikely that Connally was hit by this bullet, though I'd be happy if someone could make the above facts make sense in the single bullet theory. What makes better sense is to look for when Connally was actually hit, remembering that Connally turns around after Z-frame 224, so he seems alright even though Kennedy is visibly in difficulty. The only thing that seems a little strange is that his right shoulder dips before he turns around, which people take as a sign of his having been hit, but then he turns almost fully around to see what's happened, which suggests he hadn't been hit yet. Is there a serious case for him having been hit just before that shoulder dip?

A comment I noted when breezing through thoughts on the matter (I don't remember where) put my attention to a moment after JFK received the head shot. Connally jerks forward at Z-321 - Z-323, though nobody else does. Perhaps he was actually hit then. This would explain the head shot as the fourth bullet which pushed JFK right back and allowing the fifth shot aimed at him to simply hit Connally directly. The time between these two bullets according to the acoustic data is 0.7 seconds, not enough time for the shooter behind to check his shot.


spin

Reply to Richard J Smith post of Thu Dec-01-05 07:49 AM

Mr. Smith has studied the:

Discovery Channel
JFK: Beyond the Magic Bullet
Original Airdate: May 22, 2005

show more carefully than I have, since he has a tape of it, and has provided excellent stills from the program. The next time, I get a chance, I'm going to take a more careful look at it.

However, Mr. Smith did not, nor claimed to, do a comparison of all aspects of the wounds at Dealey Plaza and damage to CE 399 and the damage to the Australian model and it's bullet. I am no expert on any of this, and I'm going to have to rely on my memory of the show, but I will try my best.

In the following statements, I will speak as if the "Single Bullet Theory" (SBT) is an established fact. In truth, I believe it can be neither proven nor disproved. However, we are testing whether the SBT theory can be true or not, so I will always assume that the wounds to Kennedy's neck and Connally were caused by one bullet. This is reasonable since we are talking about whether the SBT is possible or not. This will save me from inserting "allegedly" everywhere, like "CE 399 allegedly struck both Kennedy and Connally" or "CE 399 allegedly broke on of Connally's rib". If we were discussing a test of a "Multiple Bullet Theory" (MBT), it would be reasonable to make the opposite assumption, that the wounds were caused by exactly two (or exactly three) bullets and to save words by speaking of this as an established fact.

There are five main categories of making comparisons that I can think of are:

1. Comparing the amount of "body material" or "model material" which is penetrated by the bullets.

2. Comparing the condition of the two bullets.

3. Comparing the amount of damage to the bones of Connally and the damage to the artificial bones of the Connally model.

4. Comparing the appearance of the "wounds".

5. Comparing the location of the wounds in the bodies of Kennedy and Connally with those in the corresponding models.



Let's take these one at a time.



1. Comparing the amount of "body material" or "model material" which is penetrated by the bullets.

The comparisons are very close. The Australian bullet went all the way though the Kennedy model, all the way through the Connally model's chest, all the way through the Connally model's wrist and struck hard the Connally model's thigh, not penetrating the thigh, but bouncing high in the air.

This test went very well for the SBT.

Consider, it was possible the bullet might have only got half way through the Connally model chest before coming to a rest, showing the bullet had no where near the energy to penetrate nearly the amount of tissue it did.

Or alternatively, it might of blasted through the models of Kennedy torso, Connally's torso, Connally's arm, Connally's thigh and continued until it slammed into the ground and fragmented, showing the bullet has too much energy to have stopped after barely penetrating Connally's thigh.

Instead, this bullet was just right for Goldilocks, it penetrated almost the perfect amount of model tissue before coming to a rest.

Many people, at least those who are only mildly interested in this case, believe a bullet can't penetrate through so much flesh and bone. This Australian test, along with the simple demonstrations of shoots through 40 inches of wood, show that this belief is without foundation.



2. Comparing the condition of the two bullets.

The Discovery show did not claim that their bullet and CE 399 ended up looking very similar. The show stressed that their bullet showed a lot more damage. But they explained that this was caused by their bullet breaking not one "rib", but two.

The two bullets compare somewhat fairly with each other. Not real similar, but not vastly different.

A lot of different things can happen to a "Carcano" bullet. If a Carcano bullet strikes nothing but soft tissue, the bullet will not be hardly damaged at all, indeed it will show less damage than CE 399. Soft tissues are basically anything but bone, which has twice the density of other tissues (which have about the same density as water).

From a 3 feet away, one can fire a Carcano into a log, the bullet will penetrate over 40 inches and hardly no damage will occur to it. It will have much less deformation than CE 399.

From one 3 feet away, one can fire a Carcano into the side of an Elephant (and then run like hell) and as long as no bone is struck, when the bullet comes to a rest 3 or 4 feet or so inside the elephant, the bullet will have no real damage to it.

Even when fired from point blank range, no amount of soft tissue or wood will damage the bullet. This is not true of other rifle bullets, but the Carcano bullet has a full metal jacket and travels at a relatively slow speed, 1400 mph, which is not fast enough for soft tissue to damage it.

Another factor to keep in mind, when traveling through thin air, the bullet will, of course, travel point first. Upon striking a solid object with the density of water, like wood, or soft animal tissue or the model, the bullet will immediately "want" to travel base first, since the base of the bullet is heavier than the point. The bullet will start to yaw or tumble and after a couple of feet, roughly, it will be traveling base first. At this point the tumble will stop and the bullet will continue to travel base first until it stops, assuming no bone is struck. This tumble will not just effect the orientation of the bullet but will cause it to curve some in an unpredictable direction, maybe up, maybe down, maybe to the right, maybe diagonally. Initially, this deflection is not great but will become greater after two or three feet.



Now, let's compare some bullets, from least damage to most damage:

2A. A bullet can show no damage.

2B. A bullet can show light damage, like CE 399.

2C. A bullet can show moderate damage, like the Australian bullet.

2D. A bullet can show heavy damage, like the one the struck Kennedy's head and broke into at least 3 large fragments, along with some smaller lead fragments.



2A. If a bullet penetrates nothing but soft tissue or wood, hardly any damage will occur to the bullet.


2B. If a bullet penetrates around 6 or 8 inches of soft tissue before first striking bone, light damage may occur to the bullet.

In the case of CE 399, the bullet penetrated Kennedy's neck and the skin of Connally's back. This slowed down the bullet to the point that the damage to the bullet would be limited if it struck bone. By now, the bullet was traveling somewhat sideways. As luck wound have it, it only struck one rib, along the back half of the bullet. The back half of CE 399 was squeezed, like a tube of tooth paste, causing a few grains of lead to ooze out the back end. The bullet was free to momentarily counter rotate around the rib which minimized the damage to the bullet, while the rib itself was being broken. By the time the bullet got to the next bone, Connally's wrist, the bullet has traveling slow enough that it could still break the wrist bone, but suffer no further damage to the bullet, except for the scraping off of a few grains of the extruding lead.



2C. If a bullet penetrates around 6 or 8 inches of soft tissue before first striking bone, moderate damage may occur to the bullet.

In the case of the Australian bullet, after slowing down some, the bullet struck not one artificial rib, as it could easily have done, but two. The front half struck one rib and the back half struck a different rib. The bullet was not free to rotate any to minimize damage to it. Both the front and back halves were momentarily slowed down, while the middle was free to travel forward, bending the bullet in a twist, as seen in the picture of the bullet Richard shows. Once the two "ribs" were fully broken, the bullet was free to continue on.

2D. A bullet can show heavy damage, like the one the struck Kennedy's head and broke into at least 3 large fragments, along with some smaller lead fragments.

This bullet penetrated only about half an inch of scalp. Then while still traveling at near maximum speed, it first struck a quarter of an inch thick bone, the skull. At such high speed, the bullet immediately started to fragment as it entered the skull, and may have fragmented further upon exiting the skull near the right temple. Two large fragments dented the windshield and the chrome and were found in the front passenger compartment. The third fragment was never found but likely continued on to strike the curb near Mr. Tague. The fragment would have had to travel another 90 yards to due this, can curve down about 5 yards. Aerodynamic whole bullets won't curve like this, otherwise, no one could hit anything they aimed at, but bullet fragments can.



3. Comparing the amount of damage to the bones of Connally and the damage to the artificial bones of the Connally model.

Fairly comparable.

Connally had one broken rib and one broken wrist bone.

The Australian model had two broken ribs and I believe (from memory) the artificial bone in one of the arms was broken as well.



Let's stop and note that the differences, small and moderate in categories 1, 2 and 3 make sense. The Australian bullet struck not one "rib" but two. This can explain both why:

* the bullet had more damage to it than CE 399.

and:

* the bullet failed to penetrate the "thigh", because it was slowed down more by striking two ribs than it would have been striking one.



4. Comparing the appearance of the "wounds".

Very good. The entrance wound of the Kennedy model was small and round, just as the corresponding wound at Dealey Plaza. The entrance wound to the Connally torso model was elongated, just as the corresponding wound at Dealey Plaza. One can say, yes, but in the model the wound is longer than the real wound. No doubt of that. But the main point is the wounds are similar. Not small and circular, but elongated. The extra elongation of the model's wound was caused because that bullet happened to yaw a bit quicker than the Dealey Plaza bullet. Even shooting through clear uniform ballistic gel, bullets will yaw differently with each shot.



Now, finally, we can concentrate on the fifth category, the one that Mr. Smith devoted his full attention to.

5. Comparing the location of the wounds in the bodies of Kennedy and Connally with those in the corresponding models.

This is the least important comparison of all. Why is that? Is it not important to prove that the "wounds" can be lined up in a straight line in space?

No it is not. I know the "wounds" can be lined up. I do not need to watch an hour long program to confirm or refute this. There are very few absolute facts in this murder case, but this is one of them, the "wounds" can be lined up. It does not matter if these four wounds at Dealey Plaza were actually made by one, two, three or four bullets, I know the wounds be lined up with the sixth floor window.

Let's us assume we have the following:

* a 3-D object, with two fixed points on it's surface.
* a different 3-D object, with two fixed points on it's surface.
* a fifth fixed point, somewhere in space.

Note the pair of "fixed" points on the surface of the two objects are "fixed" to the surface of an object, not "fixed in space, unlike the "fifth fixed" point.

No matter what object we have, no matter which points we choose on these objects, we can always arrange in space these objects in such a way that the four points line up with the fifth point on one straight line. If I choose any two points on the surface of a sphere and any two points on the surface of a cube, I can place the sphere and the cube so all four points line up with a fifth point in space. Indeed, there is not always one solution, there is always an infinite number of solutions. Both objects can be "slid" anywhere along that line and each object can be rotated 360 degrees using the line as the axis.

If it can be shown that the four wounds of Kennedy's neck and Connally's chest can not be lined up with the sixth floor window and have all 5 points form one line, this would not merely blow the Lone Gunman Theory right out of the water. It would be, I think, the greatest, certainly the most astounding, mathematical discovery of all time. The proof of this would be much more famous than the proof of the 4 color map conjecture or the proof of Fermat's Lost Theorem. But, of course, this is not true.

What is important about the location of the wounds is that the length the bullet traveled through both the Kennedy and Connally model torsos were fairly similar. It would be difficult to come up with a valid test if in Dealey Plaza the bullet traveled six inches through Kennedy's neck but the Australian bullet traveled twelve inches through the Kennedy model torso. Because the length of the wounds were similar, the bullets ended up almost in exactly the right place, either barely penetrating or barely not penetrating the Connally thigh.



I imagine everyone must concede that it is possible to line up the four wound locations. But, can one claim that the observed locations of Kennedy and Connally refute this? No, one can not, because there are no observed positions of Kennedy and Connally. In the Zapruder film, both were behind the freeway sign when first wounded. All one can say is that before the sign, both were moving normally. As they emerge from behind the sign, as seen at normal speed in the Zapruder film, both are not. Kennedy's arms quickly are raised up to his chin level. Connally's movements, if anything, are even more agitated. Clearly, both were wounded while behind the sign. And, as luck would have it, their observed positions as they disappear behind the sign, and when the emerge, are very close to being in the perfect position for causing their wounds to line up with the sixth floor window. If their wounds were inflicted by two separate bullets, it is hard to see how the bullet that struck Kennedy didn't go on and hit Connally or how the bullet that struck Connally didn't first end up hitting Kennedy. In any case, until the day the Babushka film is found (actually, I suspect this camera location is too low, just like the Nix film, to have shown their positions well), no one can claim the observed positions of Kennedy and Connally were no where near the positions needed for the SBT.



What is my explanation for the wound positions being off in the Australian tests?

First of all, an obvious one, the bullet missed the target spot by an inch. I know Mr. Smith claims that they chose the wrong spot on the model to aim at, but, just by luck, the bullet happened to hit the correct spot an inch away. But I am very skeptical of this claim. I would guess that Mr. Smith prefers to believe it happened to hit the precise spot, because he believes (mistakenly) this would disprove the SBT.

Second of all, even given perfect bullet placement, the models are going to behave differently then the real Kennedy and Connally's bodies. Having ropes embedded in Kennedy model's neck simulating sinews only works to a certain extent. Even real human bodies differ a fair amount from person to person. You can't duplicate wounds precisely even if some dictator tried to do so with condemned criminals. Even the ultimate uniform conditions, shooting bullets through uniform ballistic gel, cause different yaw, with each shot.

A third possibility is that the models were placed incorrectly so the four wound positions did not line up. This is the least likely explanation since they seemed to have taken great care in the placement. But I do wonder, how they were able to place the models precisely, since the models were not transparent. Perhaps some sort of advanced surveying technique could have, and was, used to insure the models were placed correctly. However, one of the still pictures Mr. Smith provided seems to show the model torsos are not placed so that the four wounds locations are lined up. This seems strange because all one would have to do is tilt the Kennedy torso forward a little and that would fix the alignment. This is hardly invalid, since no one knows Kennedy's exact position behind the sign. I will have to see the program again to see if the final positioning of the torsos were placed for a fair testing of the feasibility of the SBT.



And at the risk of muddying the water a little, it should be noted that at Dealey Plaza, the four wound locations did not line up mathematically perfectly with the sixth floor window, even if the SBT is true. The yaw which started upon entering the bodies and the deflection caused by the rib, almost certainly caused the path of the bullet to not be a straight line. If nothing else, gravity would have bent the path down a couple of inches by the time the bullet reached Kennedy. But it appears the bullet was not deflected very much, at least, not until it struck Connally's wrist.



In conclusion:



Since the wound locations on the models were not the same as the wound locations on the real bodies, can we conclude that the SBT is impossible?

No.



If the test was redone, with a more accurate shot that hit right on the spot, not an inch away, and all four wound locations were right, only one rib was hit and the bullet barely lodged in the model leg, with little damage to it, would that be enough to prove the SBT?

No. Recreating the wounds exactly is very difficult, particularly with unpredictable yaw. One can only do so with the brute force method, running test after test until the results were close enough. With enough test runs, one can recreate the wound locations using just one bullet. And one can do the same for the MBT using two bullets with each test run (assuming one can figure out a way to get the bullet that struck Connally's back to travel somewhat sideways). But no test, however successful, is going to prove either the SBT or the MBT.



Does the test run on the Discovery Channel serve to strengthen the plausibility of the SBT?

Absolutely. At least for those who used to wonder if a bullet can penetrate so much flesh and bone.

No message

GEORGE VREELAND HILL

Hi everyone.
I am a junior in high school and am studying the JFK assassination in my US History class.
I have watched this discovery channel documentary a couple of times and in deed find some things kind of funny.
If anyone would like to share their personal thoughts on the assassination and their theories, please email me.

I would like to mention, for debate purposes, the class is split into 2 teams: single shooter (oswald) and mulitple shooter (conspiracy).
I am on the mulitple shooter side, and would really appreciate it if anyone would have hints or ideas to share with me to help my case.

Thanks for all your time.

~Jennifer

The image attachments on this thread may not work any longer as many of them are from 2005 and are no longer active. If you are the author of any of the posts, please go back and reload the image attachments if you can. My sincere apology for this inconvenience.

Meanwhile, here is a message from Mili Cranor with the following photos:

(These images) show the contrast between Myers's representation of Kennedy's posture, and reality, as proven by the Towner photograph, which I put together with Myers's grotesquerie. Myers bends Kennedy's body into a hunchback so that his back wound is above his throat wound. The way his back sticks out, you could almost set a stein of beer on it!

Talk about one picture being worth a thousand words!

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Attachment #1, (jpg file)
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Sorry, I haven't read all the interesting replies to this interesting thread, but I thought I'd add this in case anyone missed it when I originally posted it soon after the show originally aired. I apologize if anyone has already posted this image:





This was a screen capture I made from the show of an autopsy face sheet prepared on the "JFK" torso and given to a forensic pathologist in Los Angeles. The pathologist was asked to evaluate an autopsy report on the nameless victims before being told he was evaluating a recreation of the JFK assassination. The face sheet flashed by rather quickly on the show. Only a freeze-frame can make you appreciate where on the "JFK" torso the exit wound was.

The program never showed the exit wound in the throat. With good reason. They would have to show a wound that exited in the upper chest, NOT in the neck.

Randy

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